In a recent issue of "Cesar's Way" magazine Cesar worte and article called, " 5 things that drive us crazy". It was written from what he calls a "dogs point of view"

Here's what he wrote.

Are you my pack leader or my playmate?

You’ve watched Dog Whisperer and read my books, so you know how important it is for you to claim the role of pack leader from the time your puppy first joins the family. But then you come home, and it’s a beautiful summer evening, and your pup is telling you that she is ready to play. The next thing you know, you and your dog are racing around the back yard with a ball and all the rules have changed. At least the rules have changed in your mind—until you are ready to call it quits and go inside for dinner. How is your dog supposed to understand what has happened? You gave up on being pack leader to race into playing with her instead of making it clear that play begins only when she is calm and responsive. So now she is all turned around about who’s the boss. Remember: Being a pack leader is not a part-time occupation; it’s all the time. Your dog is always looking for consistency and structure, and without it she is going to become confused about when she is supposed to follow your directions and when you two are just buddies.

So, his possition is clear. Here's mine.

I see nothing wrong with allowing your dog it start a play session. After all, I believe that dog and owner SHOULD be "best friends" not "king and subject".

Starting a play session is no different than your dog going to the back door, barking to let you know that it has to go potty, and you opening the door to let it out!

There are still many ways to show your dog that it needs to listen to you and do what you ask of it. I dont beleive that just because you allow your dog to start a play session, you are giving up your possition of leadership. That would be like saying that just because your boss goes bowling with you or plays softball at the office picnic he is not an effective leader in the office.

Your thoughts Please!!!

I agree Michael, the only scenerio in which I would never recommend someone to allow their dogs to start play sessions is when they need to correct problem behaviors through the NILIF program of training. Otherwise it seems perfectly fine to allow the dog to occasionally start a game. Provided that you decided when to end it (maybe with obedience tricks?)

We all know that dog's and wolves' social structure isn't the same but considering that Millan seems to think they are, he should take into consideration that the female and male breeders (what some would call the "alphas") don't start play sessions 100% of the time, the offspring and joiners (which some would call "Omegas, Betas, or lower ranking wolves") sometimes start play sessions without any problems.

Thats some food for thought

Yep ... I ALWAYS end the play sessions. I just say "That's All" and it's over!

It must depend on the dog. I've had Rotties that there's just no way it would be smart to let them call the shots, not ever. It can take years for them to know where to draw the line. I've seen (here comes the D word) dominant dogs cross the line between play and seriously dangerous behavior many, many times. When you have a 140 lb dog used to telling you when it's time to play, and they go into one of those play frenzies, they will do whatever they think might work to get what they want. I stop play immediately if any of my dogs get their teeth too close to my skin, even if it was just an accident. With all but Baloo, I didn't have the opportunity to teach them bite inhibition as pups. It would be just plain nuts to give them the idea that they could decide to play out in a public place or with kids in the yard, or even when at the end of a long day when I'm not as alert as I normally would be.

Ann wrote:

It must depend on the dog.

Im sure that there are always going to be exceptions! Thats why I always tell ppl to take time to bond with the dog. That way they can evaluate the dog's personality and adjust the training and socalizing aproprately.

And you're right, it should always be up to us to stop the play session for what ever reason.

I think consistancy is one of the most important components of the human/dog bond. If one of my dogs initiates play, and it's an appropriate moment, I give a few quick commands or signals and then will play with them if they're paying attention and doing what I ask of them (NILIF). Play is used as a reward here. I only have 3 dogs right now so it's not as critical, but with 5 or 7 or perhaps 9 (eek!), I have to be in control or it's utter chaos. Even though there are only 3, from past experience I know there could be 5 or more tomorrow. Inconsistency is confusing and unfair to the dogs.

Ann wrote:

I think consistancy is one of the most important components of the human/dog bond. If one of my dogs initiates play, and it's an appropriate moment, I give a few quick commands or signals and then will play with them if they're paying attention and doing what I ask of them (NILIF). Play is used as a reward here. I only have 3 dogs right now so it's not as critical, but with 5 or 7 or perhaps 9 (eek!), I have to be in control or it's utter chaos. Even though there are only 3, from past experience I know there could be 5 or more tomorrow. Inconsistency is confusing and unfair to the dogs.

I agree 100%

Our play sessions are not JUST play. It has a structure to it. From a simply toss of the ball, there is a command to "Fetch" it and bring it back. The reward is that it get's thrown again. If a tug toy is presented to me, she is asked to release it and sit. Then it is thrown. When she has retreaved it the "tug-fest" is on! Not one minute of play goes by that my dogs are not asked to do something. The reward for doing it is, the play session continues.

The great part of this is, they dont see it as work or training ... because it's fun to them!!!

We're basically on the same page then. But most dog owners expect very little from their dogs and with so many the only time the dog gets a play session is when they initiate it. For those types of dog owners, letting them think it's okay will only land their dog in a shelter that much faster.

Ann wrote:

... most dog owners expect very little from their dogs and with so many the only time the dog gets a play session is when they initiate it. For those types of dog owners, letting them think it's okay will only land their dog in a shelter that much faster.

Good point, I hadn't thought it thru that far. I guess i still expect EVERY dog owner to have the knowlage that we have. Maybe CM is taking your point into concideration when he is making that statement?!?!?

Quite possibly, as from the little I have seen of him, he takes on hard cases where the dogs are ruling the household and also rescues I believe.
Very few dog owners make the commitment that you see in those that frequent online dog forums,

Ann wrote:

Quite possibly, as from the little I have seen of him, he takes on hard cases where the dogs are ruling the household and also rescues I believe.
Very few dog owners make the commitment that you see in those that frequent online dog forums,

That's SO true. Most of his clients (although well meaning) are for the most part ... clueless. And yes, most of the dogs that he deals with are "red zone" or last chance cases. The other side of the coin are dogs that have very little interaction with a human that understands leadership of ANY kind.

I definitely Ann makes a point about CM having to deal with those more assertive dogs, cases which should be in the NILIF program of training anyway, so in part I guess its ok for him to say something like that. However there is a difference between giving that kind of advice to a specific client and giving that kind of advice to the general public. Like you guys have said it varies