hey, y'all!

i stumbled across this forum during a search, and i am so happy to see another pos-R venue for dog-owners, trainers and dog-fans -
very cool! i am a trainer with over 25-years experience, and still stunned by the rebound of punitive and aversive training, tools and methods -
had anybody ASKED me 20 or 30 years ago, will we still be using choke-chains, prong-collars, shock-collars, or HANGING dogs in 2000?
i would confidently have said, no way! only a few diehard Luddites or an ignorant minority will use aversives,
and hanging, helicoptering, body-slamming and other Abuse-In-The-Name-of-Training tactics will be cause for arrest...
and i would have been sadly, utterly mistaken.

i still hope for, and work for, a dog-friendly training environment - where OWNERS if not trainers, preferentially buy pos-R training
and pos-R behavior modification - while punitive or aversive trainers are confined to particular sports and applications [bite-sports,
the military, security industries and police forces, and the private-security and protection-industry]... as well as the stubborn hold-outs who
endlessly assert that it takes punishment to reduce aggression - which could not be more wrong-headed, let alone wrong-HEARTED,
as most aggression, in fact over 85%, is associated with fear.

but i am no longer willing to predict the fading demise of punitive training or aversive tools in APO-hands - at least, not in my lifetime.
our western-European derived USA-dominant culture has a powerful default to punish - we love to punish -
would that it were not so, but the facts are very clear.

here's to a future when dogs are TAUGHT - not punished! - into good cued-behavior, or better emotional-reactions,
- terry

Hiya Terry! Welcome to K9Academy!

Hehehe I very much like your introduction!! You can rest assure that the group you'll find here (albiet small) is all for dog friendly techniques! You can have endless discussions with people telling them that aversive training is not necessary but they just don't listen. Its as you say, punishing and being a bully is MUCH easier for them.

Well we hope to hear alot from you! I think I know you from another forum, petforums.co.uk I believe. If I'm not mistaken your APDT certified as well, you'd be a great addition to the board, we hope you stick around!!

Hi Terry! Welcome to K9Academy!

I was also impressed with your intro and look forward to reading your posts!!! I am NOT a licenced trainer, but ive been playing and working with dogs for most of my life. While I don't follow ONE training system, I think Joel Silverman and I are on the same page in most cases.

The thing that bothers me the most is: a lot of trainers have a ridgid training style and they dont take the time to get to know the dog, it's likes and dislikes, and it's personality before they start working with it.

I like to spend a few hours to get to know the dog, and I very seldom give any negitive signals to dogs, (with the exception of telling them "NO" once in a while), and concentrate on reinforcing what i like.

My dog's and the dogs I work with are my best friends first, and i find that they are more willing to do what i ask because of it!!!

hey, steve! :--)
do U have a user-handle at PF-uk? or have U mostly been a guest [reading vs posting]?

Steven_L wrote:

If I'm not mistaken your APDT certified as well, you'd be a great addition to the board, we hope you stick around!!

not certified, no -
the USA-apdt only does CPDT - 'Certified Pet-Dog Trainer' - thru a $300-fee written exam administered and scored by a third-party,
and U must pre-qualify with X-hours total as a trainer and as an instructor [either solo or the primary, as opposed to an assistant]
of group classes.

so i am a 'full' member of USA-apdt - as opposed to a 'certified professional' AKA 'CPDT'- as i can neither document my many-hours
of training, nor afford to travel to Phila, PA, to take the exam, AND buy hotel-accommodation, meals, etc.

i am also a member of APDT-Australia, which thank DoG, bans shock in any form and prong-collars; they also require
a current-member to refer an unknown applicant, and new-members are voted in by the membership - 'just send $$'
does not meet their criteria.
APDT-Aus has a binding ethics-statement, too - members who violate it are evicted.

USA-apdt, conversely, allows members to USE or DO anything so long as they are not convicted of abuse or cruelty;
the organization 'encourages' and 'promotes' and educates' members and the public about dog-friendly methods and tools,
but does not limit their members tools or methods, or require proof of minimal educational-standards, or require a binding signature
to an ethics statement.

by trying to be everything to everybody, apdt-USA has IMO only succeeded in muddying their brand-name and their training image;
most of the newer-members are a mixed-bag of shock-collar 'e-trainers', WHISPERER-wannabes, dominance-preachers,
and yank-N-thank PC-version-Koehler choke / slip / prong / leash-jerk trainers from 1950-flashbacks.
they join to get the perks of membership in the biggest trainer-org in North America, and for the consumer-appeal of the apdt-USA logo
on their site, business-cards, magnetic car-signs, and other promotional materials. such members have no interest whatever in the
'educational opportunities' to learn more-positive and more dog-friendly methods; they hang the new logo, and go right on with the jerk,
poke, prong, roll, shock, choke, hang, threaten, flood, etc, tactics they have been using all along.
the genuinely pos-R trainers who are new-members are IMO outnumbered by aversive, punitive and 'pack-theory' competitors.

apdt-USA promotes Dog-Friendly Training -
many consumers simply assume that this means their members all use Only Dog-Friendly tools and methods -
which is patently un-true.
once USA-apdt passed the 5,000-member mark, the number of shock-seminars advertised on the trainers Members-Only list soared;
that was intensely disturbing to long-time members like myself, and we pos-R trainers felt bludgeoned in what was previously a safe-zone.
[shock is no longer allowed to be advertised on the members-list; this does not mean members do not use it, not only to proof, but also
to teach naive dogs and puppies, from Lesson-One of Day-One on.]

when i joined there were fewer than 2,000-members and the pos-R ethic was primary - i would not be the least surprised to find that pos-R
members of USA-apdt are now outnumbered, as early-adopters age out and retire. it's a sad comment on maintaining standards,
or even advancing standards, rather than selling memberships.

this is purely my experience and my opinion - not, i am sure, that of the USA-apdt
membership as a whole, nor of the USA-apdt Board of Directors. i speak only for myself.

happy training,
- terry

Betterdog4u wrote:

...a lot of trainers have a rigid training style and they don't take the time to get to know the dog,
[her or his] likes and dislikes, and... personality, before they start working with [the dog].

hey, B-D! yes, i was very lucky to have had as my first mentor an excellent breeder of GSDs, and a very-fair trainer
for her day, mrs frank arnold of Bucks Co, PA - her very first rule was, look at the dog - what is this dog saying?
what state of mind, what prevailing emotion, how stressed is this dog? just reaching out and TAKING a leash from
an owner, without first getting a good, solid grasp of the dog's emotional-state and general intentions, would have been just
shockingly intrusive and rude.

even then, the handler or owner GIVES the trainer the leash - always; this may seem like hair-splitting,
but for the dog, it's crucial info - this calms fearful dogs [slightly] or can even prevent a bite from a defensive or confident,
aggro adult-dog.
i don't step-into the dog's space or the handler's space - they REACH to hand me the leash, freely and willingly, which is a big
signal of the person's trust in me, and a clear communication of the transfer of handling from one human to the other.
unlike CM/DW [IMO] i don't court bites, - i like my blood contained neatly + skin unbroken, thanks.

it still shocks me to realize that *CM/DW* is MORE punitive by far, than was my mentor in 1964 / 65.
that is a truly stunning realization - 45-years later, we have gone backwards in our public-tolerance of violence
toward dogs, which is labeled as 'training' or 'rehabilitation'. How the H*** did that happen?
i have no idea - i can only say, it did happen. and it saddens me enormously.

- terry

leashedForLife wrote:

hey, steve! :--)
do U have a user-handle at PF-uk? or have U mostly been a guest [reading vs posting]?

My name there was Sol....I unfortunately didn't stick around too much (I have a tendency to do that...), actually you and I had a brief interchange of words but thats it. Here's a thread I dug up to refresh our memory http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/75349-my-dog-suddenly-frightened-other-dogs-people.html

Hmmm well it's interesting you say that about the USA APDT, from my understanding most (not to say all) of those trainers were reputable and recommendable. Some of the most informative and up to date articles I've found were by APDT/CPDT trainers, and because if I'm not mistaken didn't Ian Dunbar had something to do with the developement of the program....could be in canada...but I'm not sure. In any case, I really look up to trainers like him. Well its definitely something to ponder about. I'm actually hoping to sometime get a CPDT cert...who know when though

Steven_L wrote:

Hmmm well it's interesting you say that about the USA APDT, from my understanding most (not to say all) of those trainers were reputable and recommendable.
Some of the most informative and up to date articles I've found were by APDT/CPDT trainers...

oh, i am not saying ALL of the USA-apdt is punitive, aversive, or ignorant, not by any means! there are PLENTY of pos-R dedicated trainers to be found there - it just is not 'everybody',
U do have to winnow the chaff - pat miller, jessica janowski, christina waggoner, andrea arden, steve white, bonnie hess, and more, are all members that i can vouch for, myself.

Steven_L wrote:

...if I'm not mistaken didn't Ian Dunbar had something to do with the development of the program... could be in canada...

yes, ian founded it, but as soon as the organization was up and running, he left - he did not return and run for a space on the B-o-D until 2-years ago? i think.

Steven_L wrote:

Well its definitely something to ponder about. I'm actually hoping to sometime get a CPDT cert... who knows when though

just be sure to track Ur hours! that's what stymied me
- terry

Hi, Terry! Glad you found us!
I live in the mid-west usa and currently have 3 rotties...2 are adopted shelter dogs, both somewhere around 11 yrs old, and one is a pup that I got from a breeder. He's just turned 10 months old.
In many states here, a trainer does not need to be certified in any manner to call themselves a trainer, so I tend to stick with those with apdt certs. I've only run into one that I wouldn't recommend to others. Occasionally I will work with a specific trainer with no cert but lots of experience on a specific problem that I am having, and other times I have actually had dogs evaluated by animal behaviorists, when I'm absolutely stumped. Six years ago, there wasn't even one apdt trainer within a 50 mile radius, so for many years I made a 60 mile drive (one way) to an obedience club that I liked, then another one, a little closer, just 40 miles away. So, in my opinion, things are looking up...we now have 4 apdt trainers within 25 miles of my town.

leashedForLife wrote:

even then, the handler or owner GIVES the trainer the leash - always; this may seem like hair-splitting, but for the dog, it's crucial info - this calms fearful dogs [slightly] or can even prevent a bite from a defensive or confident, aggro adult-dog.

I don't step-into the dog's space or the handler's space - they REACH to hand me the leash, freely and willingly, which is a big signal of the person's trust in me, and a clear communication of the transfer of handling from one human to the other.

it still shocks me to realize that *CM/DW* is MORE punitive by far, than was my mentor in 1964 / 65.
that is a truly stunning realization - 45-years later, we have gone backwards in our public-tolerance of violence
toward dogs, which is labeled as 'training' or 'rehabilitation'. How the H*** did that happen?
i have no idea - i can only say, it did happen. and it saddens me enormously.

- terry

CM is only in the limelite now b/c he "got discovered" by a well meaning (but misinformed) hollywood celib who "told someone", who "told someone", who "told someone", and a producer heard about him and made him what he is today. That doesn't make him (or his methods) right ... but that's where we're at. I believe that he is well meaning and that his methods work (to some extent) on "out of control" or "last chance" cases. But everyday ppl with fairly normal dogs are now using what they believe to be his "way" and they are making thing worse. It's NOW our job to dispell the misinformation and show ppl that there is a better "way".

In my case, my first experances with a dog were at around the age of 7. The Lady's name was Mrs. Eggorer and she was just a homemaker from Morris County NJ who loved her dog. It was this beautiful Dalmation mix named Timmie.

She always told me that dogs just want to be "friends" with us, and if treated with kindness, they would do anything to please us. She showed me how to "talk to him" and I learned that if I used the right body language and the correct Que's Timmie and I could work together and we would both have a good time. She explained to me, in very simple terms, what reward based training was. She also told me the basics of how to read a dog's mind by watching for the signals it sent out via body language. I must say that that was when i 1st fell in love with dogs.

The thing that stuck out in my mind then (and still does today) is that she never yelled or even raised her voice at him. She was a very soft-spoken lady, but she was of a firm resolve. If she told someone (a person) to do something, she expected it to be done right away and without comment. Looking back, Im sure that came accross to Timmie as well.

From her example, (reinforced in the 70's by Joel), I have always used the "friend to friend" concept.

To be completely honest, I am not always a patent person. There are often times that I have to "step back and take a deep breath" ... but I have never had to raise a hand, jurk a dog off its feet, or flip it on it's side to get it to listen to me.

Sorry ... forgot to post the picture. (Me and Timmie)

hey, ann! :--)
i like a good Rott - the thinking, unflappable ones are my favorites, who consider if its worth barking at before opening their mouths

Ann wrote:

Six years ago, there wasn't even one apdt trainer ...in a 50 mile radius, so for many years I made a 60 mile drive (one way) to an obedience club that I liked,
then another one, a little closer, just 40 miles away. So, in my opinion, things are looking up...we now have 4 apdt trainers within 25 miles of my town.

cool! now if they all-4 are pos-R-biased and don't use shock, prongs, chokes, etc, hey, i am THRILLED

it's only the wide range of tools and philosophies that worries me;
a certain USA-apdt member in the metro-Chicago area is ** notorious ** for having been arrested on cruelty charges:
for using TWO shock-collars on many dogs and even puppies, simultaneously - one conventional placement on the neck, the 2nd on the 'rear waist' with electrodes on the bare-belly of the groin - which means running across the sheathed penis of Ms, and a few inches above the genitals of Fs. BTW - she credits *ferd hassan* of Sit-Means-S*it fame, with teaching her this vital tactic... Congrats, another reason to dislike a man i have never in my life, met - sight-unseen, i wouldn't know him if i bumped into him on the sidewalk.

these dual shock-collar dogs and pups were repeatedly seen by multiple witnesses, they shrieked, yelped, ran away from her, hid under park-benches and behind pedestrians, peed themselves, shook violently, hid behind strollers, ran to total strangers to solicit attn, etc...
she was 'training' them in city-parks; flyers were posted, describing her and the dogs behavior, asking for leads -
Animal Control picked her up, based on multiple descriptions and repeated phone-calls, written complaints, etc, from locals.

she was acquitted -
NOT declared 'innocent' as she often claims - after the judge first BANNED expert testimony, then at the end, announced he was 'Not an Expert' and was not capable to determine if 2 shock-collars was cruel... so the charges were dropped; she was not exonerated, rather the presiding judge first crippled the trial, and then said he was not adequate to the task, himself. if dual shock-collars is 'dog-friendly training', i am the reincarnation of Helen of Troy.

still disappointed by that incredible trial,
- terry

Betterdog4u wrote:

Sorry ... forgot to post the picture. (Me and Timmie)

GREAT period-picture, definitely worth posting! thanks for that.